Via: Kshmendra Kaul
Dear Chanchal
This Reader List is not meant for the comparative study of religions. My advice and request would be to avoid religious discourses especially of the kind "my religion is better than yours"
Religion does influence and interfere into political and sociological matters. That cannot be ignored but any comment/analysis needs to have specificity to a situation/issue.
Chanchal, I belong to what is generally known as "Hinduism". Yet, the "Dharmik" precepts that are dear to me and that fascinate me are quite a distance from what "Hinduism" has become.
My point is that just as I could find many things to criticise in Islam or amongst Muslims. I could also pick many things to criticise about Hinduism and Hindus.
Muslims and Christians are as much a part of India as a Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Agnostic, Atheist... etc etc. We should look for the affirmatives (as well as negations) that would consolidate each ones contribution to a healthier India.
Criticising the word or action of one who seeks to damage India is as much applicable to a Hindu as it is to a Muslim or Christian or any other one.
Kshmendra Kaul
chanchal malviya wrote:
For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful...
Quick questions:
1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims.
2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words?
These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you...
1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands.
2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us.
3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity.
4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained.
5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place.
6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others).
7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva.
8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped.
Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'.
How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure.
If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years.
Jai Hind,
Via: chanchal malviya
Oishik,
Who you are I do not know.... But the way you have written to Vedavati is intolerable... And since you have used your words, now you have hear our words... and mind it, see our decency in even being vulgar... Read my reply...
Let me tell you what Hinduism means -
1. we consider every women as mother, sister or daughter (other than our wife)... Hence we consider Muslims women equivalent to our mother... Thus, when you are abusing us, you must understand that your abuse is bouncing back to your own mother, sister or daughter... as that is the relation we own with them all...
2. For your information, the worst of our Culture - Ravana also didn't try to harm Sita mata against her wish - yet he is demon for many reasons... Unlike Islamic, who have made captive in Kashmir many Hindu women and misuing them, they export women from India to Arabic countries - do you think these are the work of terrorist alone...
3. Hinduism teaches to worship women.. We have every women of our house worshipped as Laxmi... Islam do not understand the meaning of worship also... They feel, God was foolish to create human and intelligent to create Muslims... God was foolish to write Vedas but intelligent to write Quran... God was foolish to create Hindus and intelligent to order Muslims to destroy Hindus... And God has given order to show barbarism agains Hindu women... God was foolish to ask Hindus not to invade any other country and remain peaceful and intelligent to ask Islam to invade Hindus and loot and kill them... God was foolish to ask Hindus to treat Cow as worshippable creature and ask Islam to slander both Cow and its protectors... If this is the thought driving every Muslim, how will they accept India as a mother... How will they consider Hindus as their brother... How will they consider peace as a humanity...
I am sorry... I am not writing anything out of hatred... I am writing purely because this is happening...
And let Muslims accept that if Gujarat riot has happened, where both Hindus and Muslims died... there are these things that are continously happening....
And please please, do not use abuses agains our sisters... This is provoking and has provoked me to tell all these...
Best regards,
----- Original Message ----
From: Vedavati Jogi
To: pawan.durani@gmail.com; oishiksircar@gmail.com; bawazainab79@gmail.com; reader-list@sarai.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 10:52:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
oishik,
i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation.
when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level.
vedavati
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani@gmail.comTo: oishiksircar@gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi@hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink
On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote:
Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have
lost my head, then I may need to ask for your help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation'
may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this
list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last> refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat
descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any
country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that
no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79@gmail.com > > To: vrjogi@hotmail.com> > Subject:
Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com ; reader-list@sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead> he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken
against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of
bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> >
expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79@gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi@hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have
won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't
you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the
secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash@gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list@sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also
all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil
loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi@hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> > question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > >
> _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe:
send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!< http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe:
https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>--OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar@gmail.com oishik.sircar@utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
Via: chanchal malviya
http://69.36.167.209/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi/archive/nll/20071226011151/
This is the reality and not what media shows...
Open your eyes...
Via: Kshmendra Kaul
Dear Tara Prakash
I already accepted your earlier stated clarification that you do not want to homogenise.
I am now trying to make sense of what "exactly" you meant. So let me re-state my enquiries:
1. If all the 'forces' named by you ( so-called pseudo secular forces + soft Hindutva forces + major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces) were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government?????? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi. Who therefore does Modi represent??????
2. If a substantial part of the 65% vote (in the Gujarat election) was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (as per Tara Prakash, whether they won or lost), then wouldnt a logical deduction from Tara Prakash's premise be that those participating voters were "evil" too??????
These are questions. Of course you can say "I said what I said and I do not care what meanings are conveyed or whether anything meaningful is conveyed at all; I said what I said"
Kshmendra Kaul
TaraPrakash wrote:
If this is how you understand the message, let this be the import of my message. I of course do not want to homogenize in any circumstance.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul
To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list@sarai.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
Dear Tara Prakash
Your words were very clear and did not need any interpretation by me. Maybe it was an unfortunate turn of phrase and words by you. In any case, now, you have clarified that you did not mean that all Hindus are evil.
You have again said some interesting things. For one:
"""""" Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him.""""
If all the 'forces' named by you were pitted against Modi, then who are the ones that voted Modi back into government? It cannot be the "hard-core Hindutva forces" because according to you the major part of them were against Modi.
AND you go on to say:
""""" I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil."""""
Gujarat had a 65% voter turn-out. That is quite a high percentage for any part of the world. If a substantial part of this 65% vote was secured by those who you call the representatives of evil "main forces" (whether they won or lost), then those participating voters would be "evil" too.
So, in the "Gujarat according to Tara Prakash" it was 'mainly' the 'evil' contesting and 'mainly' the 'evil' voting.
Kshmendra Kaul
TaraPrakash wrote:
Dear Kshmendra.
An intriguing interpretation of my message.
I did not intend to homogenize Hindus, as the message I was responding to, did.
I don't see Hindu farmers getting anything positive from Modi's policies. Nor other poor Hindus.
Not only so-called pseudo secular forces or soft Hindutva forces were campaigning against Modi, but major part of the hard-core Hindutva forces were also against him. In this specific "electoral fight" even if Modi had lost there would not be much positive expected.
I stick to my opinion that the main forces contesting these election both represented evil. It does not mean that I am calling Hindus evil. The evil had to be elected because there were no other alternatives.
It will be presumptuous on my part to define Hinduism here, but I refuse to restrict it to some opportunist ruffians. I refuse to buy the Hindutva brand sold by the brigade.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kshmendra Kaul
To: TaraPrakash ; reader-list@sarai.net
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
Dear Tara Prakash
Intriguing comment by you. You wrote:
""""'The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have won, Hindus have lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses."""""
It suggests rather states very blatantly that in your opinion whether the Hindu wins or loses, the Hindu is evil. Or at least in the specific case of Gujarat's electoral fights, according to you, whether the Hindus were on the winning side or the losing side, the Hindus are evil.
Kshmendra Kaul
TaraPrakash wrote:
Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the
RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka
shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani be
happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo communal for
floating her own party against BJP?
The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have
won, Hindus have
lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses.
May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth
next time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vedavati Jogi"
To: ;
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM
Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election
>
>
>
>
> whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless question.
> its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for psudo
> seculars!
>
> you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing
> the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!
>
> vedavati
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tried the new MSN Messenger? Itâs cool! Download now.
> http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> List archive:
Via: chanchal malviya
There are huge breaking force acting on our Nation
1. With the influence of foreigh missionnaries and investors, Science is taking tool to introduce concepts like Sex Education in Children - the target is next generation should be destroyed. Current generation has already met the target of not respecting the nation and running heedlessly towards whatever they like. they cannot withstand pressure, nor are the brave enough to take bold decisions. they want money and they want wine and girls around in the name freedom.
2. Govt. policies like Reservations are breaking the nation to pieces, separating people from people.
3. Chrisitian missionnaries are converting the Hindus to Christians at a ver fast pace
4. Muslims are being intruded (from Bangladesh in particular) in all parts, increasing their population so as to become the majority and declare the nation as Islamic state
5. Foreign investments from Islamic state are continuously buying lands through local Muslims
6. Charas, Ganja, Afeem, other drugs along with Arms and Ammunitions are being continuously coming across Pakistan and Bangladesh borders. Arms are provided to Islamic groups and Naxals. Drugs are provided to sex educated children of careless parents.
7. Muslims are in target of Islamic conversions, continuously marrying Hindus girls - Hindus girls are not able to understand that it is they who are converted to Islam and the boy is never accepting Hinduism - Why? If it was love, we would have found conversions in this field happening in both area.
8. Indian intellectuals are continuously exported to Foreign countries (IIT, IIM, and all good institute students), ensuring that they do not work for India
9. Export of our Food Items is increasing when prices are hiking in our own country.
10. Poverty now seem to be the property of minority alone - when actually, no minority is under poverty - most of them are on target to achieve this nation as a group.
There are so many things happening in this nation from years. And now there is only one agenda - kill Hinduism, ask the Youth to be secular and attack Hinduism - because Hindus destroyed is India taken over.
Open your eyes, O Hindus - this is not a religion when you talk Hinduism. It is the only philosophy that is humanity. What you see as differences are actually political move to break the nation apart. Do not get moved by such irrationality. have the gut to see beyond the screen, have the intelligence to understand beyond what is highlighted in news.
Jai Hind,
----- Original Message ----
From: Vedavati Jogi
To: reader-list@sarai.net
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:19:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election
what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
don't you stay in this country?
is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash@gmail.com> To: vrjogi@hotmail.com; bawazainab79@gmail.com; chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com; reader-list@sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had
no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi"
> To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil,
why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > >
propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec
2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79@gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi@hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com; reader-list@sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in
Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by
reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by
congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79@gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi@hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won..
in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think
that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet
its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list@sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for
my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next
time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi@hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an
email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > >
https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >
Via: ARNAB CHATTERJEE
Dear Vedavati,
Don't talk to Oishik, he's a bad boy; bad and a mad boy.
After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu music video for u[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit insertion here --the video and its two major characters with their spectral presence allowed me to imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in the interest of the nation.
[Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.]
yours in admiration
arnab
Vedavati Jogi wrote:
oishik,
i have every right to express my views and i always express them in decent manner. never use filthy language. because i know what i am saying is correct and it is in the interest of the nation.
when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence they use this language, this shows your level.
vedavati
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From: pawan.durani@gmail.comTo: oishiksircar@gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi@hotmail.comOISHIK ...you stink
On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote:
Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours who had done that a long long time back... trust me it feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it... you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel... but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of the holiday season!On Dec 25, 2007 2:38 AM, Zainab Bawa wrote:> Dear Vedavati, > Thanks for a long response. I will definitely ask my Bengali 'Hindu'> brother-in-law (my blood sister's husband) what his sentiments are and how> I> can truly support him. But if he bangs the phone on me because he thinks I >> have lost my head, then I may need to ask for your
help. I will also ask> my> Palakat Brahmin 'Hindu' ex-boyfriend from Kerala what his sentiments are> and> how I can truly support him but if he refuses to speak with me henceforth > because he harbours certain 'secular' (aiee pseudosecular) sentiments,> then> I may have to revert back to you. I shall also ask my variously 'Hindu'> colleagues in my Ph.D. programme if they have certain sentiments that I > can> support, I will certainly do that - by the way, there are Tamilians,> Kannadigas, Malayalis with me, each of whose kin and 'ancestors' harbour> different kinds of linguistic hatreds against each other, so perhaps I may >> have some task at hand in figuring out their sentiments, but surely I will> do what you have suggested.>> As for asking me to leave from here because no one has detained me, I> cannot > remember anywhere in my email where I have said I want to leave this> 'place'. For you, this 'nation' may be your place. For me, my hearth in> this> part of Bangalore
is my 'place' as much as Bombay city is my 'place'. For > some of the folks at Sarai for example, Sarai is their 'place' that> happens> to be situated in 'Delhi' and some among them might own 'Delhi' as their> place while completely rejecting 'Delhi as the national capital place'. > 'Place' and the feeling of 'place' are not fixed notions and they emerge> from time to time. For instance my relative in Bharatnagar slum and her> neighbours who have been living there for donkey's years are now being > 'displaced' because builders want to build large complexes there. Her> statements to me and some of my colleagues and friends was "this is my> place> and I am not going to leave it." I don't think they care about Hindustan > or> India or Bharat when they are being 'displaced' for some wonked, euphoric> imagination of the city.>> It is extremely easy for you and for some of the people on this list to > finally react and say 'go back to Pakistan' as if 'Pakistan' were the last>
refuge for 'pseudosecular' 'non-compliant with mainstreamism' 'Muslims'.> Is> there anything beyond this that you can say? And what is that 'Pakistan' > that you are asking 'us' (though I strongly disagree with this) 'Muslims'> to> go to? What is your imagination of that Pakistan that you are 'condemning'>> 'us' to? >> Truly,> Zainab> P.S. You might want also perhaps refresh my memory of what Godhra riots> caused the riots in Mumbai. And also, how were the people of Mumbai> concerned with a temple being built in place of a mosque. I know for sure > that my father could not care whether a temple or mosque was being built.> All he cared about was his livelihood that was charred to rubble in Jan> 1993> for no position of his in a mandir-masjid issue. > P.S.2 I am not sure if Babar is really me ancestor. I don't have Persian> descent. I have some wonked Kutch-Gujarat descent/genes.>>> On Dec 25, 2007 12:12 PM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com> wrote:>> > my dear zainab,> >>
> nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to> live> > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan. > >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they> > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own> > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra> > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were> > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > not> > a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place> where> > babri structure once stood? > >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar> > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think> > any country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds. > >> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot
compete> with> > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has> > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools. > > still you send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they> don't> > get jobs anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'....> hence> > demand for reservations..! > >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of> > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who >> > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any> > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false> > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against> > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future> also> > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare
to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why> muslim> > appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of> votes.> > now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare to > take> > action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars,> instead> > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > hands> > with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for> > hindu sentiments too.> > > > vedavati> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530> > From: bawazainab79@gmail.com > > To: vrjogi@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > CC: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com ; reader-list@sarai.net> >> >> > My dear Vedavati, When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead>
he> > talks about '5 crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not > > equate soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take>> > stern action against the former because he knows that will not hurt> > muslim sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left > > after brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and> when> > you have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are> > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > primary> > identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice left?> What> > do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who participated in> the> > 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary but no action was > > taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences because Maharashtra> > government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so will result in mass> > violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and secular state
to be > in,one> > where even when there are no sentiments, they are assumed to be aligned.>> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com> wrote:> >> > dear zainab,> >> > 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country only> because > > of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% muslims who had> voted> > for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay in india after> partition.> > they chose to stay back because their daily bread & butter was here not > > because they were supporting 'secularism'.> >> > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947.> > they gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats > > they fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus.> >> > there are many towering personalities from muslim community in india> like> > dr. kalam, bismilla khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan > pathan,> > amjad ali and many more... all
of them come from ordinary background and> > are very very popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked> > about descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme > hai' ,> > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank> > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim> > sentiments.> >> > modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 crore gujratis>> > (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate soharabuddin & common> > muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern action against the > former> > because he knows that will not hurt muslim sentiments anyway.> >> > this secularism practised by congress & likes has always been at the> > expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & trains still > -congress> > is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & cry when person like> > soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about 'gujrat' killings> what> > about 'kashmiri
pundits'?> >> > gujjubhais have proved that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for> granted.> > that is why it is their victory!> >> > vedavati > >> >> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800> > From: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election > > To: bawazainab79@gmail.com> > CC: vrjogi@hotmail.com> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the> > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other> words,> > it is humanity that has won.. > >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in> big> > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in >
> Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a> word> > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> >> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims >> > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to> make> > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of> > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that> all> > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims> > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > THEN> > Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority> of> > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal >> > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to> > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and
voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran > as> > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same> God is> > not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening> through> > our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation of > > Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used> to> > do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will> start> > calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting the >> > mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals of> > their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is> expected> > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win
is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Zainab Bawa > > To: TaraPrakash < taraprakash@gmail.com>> > Cc: reader-list@sarai.net; Vedavati Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com >> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 AM> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> >> > Hi Vedavati,Thanks for the forceful clarification. I am still a bit > > unclear> > as to why Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of> > Hindu> > votebanks, there are several of them across the country and as you> > yourself > > have accepted that just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus>> > are> > not Hindus.> > I really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand> your> >> > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting> that> > Modi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of 'Hindustan'?> > Again, apologies for nagging you. > > Cheers,> > Zainab (confused gujju ben)> >> > On Dec 24, 2007
1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> >> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the> > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin> ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist > Advani> > > be> > > happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo> communal> >> > > for> > > floating her own party against BJP? > > > The fight in Gujarat was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus> > have> > > won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > > > May be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your> > mouth> > > next time.> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----> > > From: "Vedavati Jogi" < vrjogi@hotmail.com>> > > To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM> > > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > whether it is a victory for bjp or for modi....its a useless> >
question.> > > > its a victory for hindus. and i hope it will be an eye opener for> > psudo> > > > seculars!> > > >> > > > you can't always divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for> > showing> > > > the world that when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed! > > > >> > > > vedavati> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now. > > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > >
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!<<br /> http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/Default> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------> > It's about getting married. Click here! Try it!< http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=201> >> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: --OISHIK SIRCARScholar in Women's RightsFaculty of Law, University of Toronto60 Harbord StreetRoom 016 BToronto, ON M5S 3L1oishiksircar@gmail.com oishik.sircar@utoronto.ca416.876.7926_________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe:
https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive:
Via: chanchal malviya
For those who have advocated Idolatory as abuse to God - let them show One religion and one society in the world who do not worship Idols and are peaceful...
Quick questions:
1. What are words describing Allah? Only literates can read those words. Blind can hear those words. Blind and Deaf can neither read nor hear those words - what about those Muslims.
2. Do you believe that a picture (image) is worth more than 1000 words? What would you prefer to worship - words or images. Which is more impacting - picture or words?
These questions might seem to be simple, but they are not. let me put some analysis for you...
1. Hindus worship Ideals and not Idols. Ask the most idiot of all Hindus, would the stone move or talk for you and he will so 'No'. But if you ask the same Hindu, what will your stone do if I break it, and he will reply what will your Allah or Christ do it, if I abuse him. The answers are same on both side, the effect is same. But one question is sure to think in depth - why do Hindus worship Idols then when all of them knows that it cannot move or talk? And answer is so simple - Can Allah or Christ move or talk? You find Allah and Christ in your words, we find our God in Idols. How beautiful your words are you know, but we know our Idols are the most beautiful creations of some hands.
2. Hindus worshipping Idols while knowing that it will not move or talk signifies that Hindus are worshipping the Immaterial in relation to Material (Both of which constitutes the world). But Islam or Christian think that God is an entity that sits somewhere in 7th world and watches helplessly on us.
3. Names like Allah or Christ signifies the identity of God as an entity.
4. God as One is also in Hinduism, but not illogical to say that he is material bounded by smallest finite number 'One'. Hindus believe that all manifestations and energies of manifestations when summed up results in that 'One' which has formed everything and which is the formation too. Thus the 'One' is explained.
5. Human minds are materialistic. Senses requires material to sense and understand things. Hence, to understand and feel God, words, images, emotions, everthing in Hinduism has a place.
6. Love, respect and regard is the pillars of all Hindu worship (Unlike all other religions, where they worship religion and force the same on others).
7. Deities in Hindus are natural powers - they were not humans. They are used as metaphors to explain the natural science. Thus, story of Brahma, Vishnu and others in Quran doesn't mean that they had physical existence - they are the icons to relate to natural powers. For example, Jyotir Lingam means Shiv - The God of Light - Jyoti meaning light and Lingam in sanskrit meaning Symbol. Thus shiva is a symbol of light, light being the highest form of energy - and hence Shiva is called as Mahadeva.
8. Idol worhship is a social arrangement which absorbs all level of thinking to become peaceful in nature. It is because, Hindus seem to be worshipping Idols, but actually they do not worship Idols - they worship Ideals. Hence, when one worships Lord Rama, he doesn't worship Rama as God, he worships the best of God in Rama. Islam says God is most benevolent, the most kind... but fails to categorize this most and ends up in saying that he is an entity. Hinduism goes far ahead from this to say that God is within us too, with all his qualities - it is up to us to realize the best of him - humans fail to do, but the most powerful of all natural creations does this - Lord Rama and Krishna did this - and hence the best of God is what is worshipped.
Nothing in Hinduism is illogical. Everything has a scientific and natural research of thousands of years behind it. It is like, we do not need to know how to build a computer and hence we are simply taught the softwares. So, a Hindus need not know what is Saraswati in natural form, but are taught to relate her with the ability to study - the ability being the power of nature that helps in building knowledge. And hence, Hindus worship Saraswati and making a beautiful idol is to ensure that everyone has the love and respect towards 'Vidya'.
How will Muslims and Christians understand this - when their whole social arrangement is to kill. A child grows with a goat with love and is then taught to kill it barbarously with his hand. Anyone going against is declared Kafir and anything outside the hardlined boundary is thought as impure.
If Jesus became God by forgiving his enemies, let the world start worshipping 1 billion Jesus - for Hindus have been forgiving even greater barbarism from past 1000 years.
Jai Hind,
Via: ARNAB CHATTERJEE
Dear Vedavati,
Don't talk to Oishik, he's a
bad boy; bad and a mad boy.
After a lot of brain cracking I've got a hindu
music video for u[
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2znSg9MDb8] ( your
eyes and ears only though of course I cannot stop
other 'secular' or as u spell "psudo" secular readers
from enjoying the same); however forgive an illicit
insertion here --the video and its two major
characters with their spectral presence allowed me to
imagine --they are you and Oishik dancing together in
the interest of the nation.
[Plz Use the above URL, if it fails, use search in
youtube for Jogiya by Romey Gill.]
yours in admiration
arnab
Vedavati Jogi wrote:
oishik,
i have every right to express my views and i always
express them in decent manner. never use filthy
language. because i know what i am saying is correct
and it is in the interest of the nation.
when people like you cannot do logical thinking hence
they use this language, this shows your level.
vedavati
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:18:27 +0530From:
pawan.durani@gmail.comTo:
oishiksircar@gmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list]
gujrat electionCC: ; vrjogi@hotmail.com
OISHIK ...you stink
On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR wrote:
Dear Vedavati:Please shove your Hindu sentiments up
your arse... take that from a Hindubrother of yours
who had done that a long long time back... trust me it
feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of it...
you'll keep doing itover and over again... shoving up
the Hindu bullshit I mean...May be that should be your
new year resolution...Good luck... OishikP.S.:
Apologies to other reader-list users for the
purposeful use of acertain kind of language (cannot
say whether it is indecent or not)... Iknow we need to
confront radicalism with reason... and not drivel...
but I hope to be excused this time... for the sake of
the holiday season!
Messenger blocked? Want to chat? Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/webmessengerpromo.php
Via: Vedavati Jogi
what is meant by 'your beloved' country?
don't you stay in this country?
is your 'secularism' more important than nationalism?
are muslims 'bigger' than country?> From: taraprakash@gmail.com> To: vrjogi@hotmail.com; bawazainab79@gmail.com; chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com; reader-list@sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:29:25 -0500> > Why Pakistan? People have migrated to African countries, West Indese, > European countries, North American countries, South East Asian countries and > so many other nooks and corners of the world to get rid of your beloved > country. Are they all Muslims? If you yourself are not already abroad at the > moment, will not waste a second thought as soon as the opportunity comes > your way. So the majority of those who migrate, which religion they are? > Bharat mata ki jai.> On the other hand just consider the loving Hindus of Gujarat when they were > fighting with their hindu Maratha brothers, and slogan "Su che saru che> Joota le ke maru che" became infamous. Violence was the order of the day and > Muslims had no role to play in it. You must be another supporter of Shiv > Sena for their anti muslim rhetoric and for their pseudo patriotic > sentiments. How do you reconcile with their demand for non marathas to leave > Mumbai? Do they want only Muslims to go away?> Who will unite Hindus? Those who you think can do it are themselves divided > and after each other's blood just for the sake of the power. If I want to > join your camp who should I support Uma Bharati who brought BJP in to power > in MP with her hard core hindutva rhetoric and then left the party or Advani > who started rath yatra and polarized the voters, and had been dropping hints > that he should be the PM rather than ABV in unlikely event of BJP being > voted back to power? Has VHP fofrgiven Advani for calling Jinna secular? The > leadership of which RSS wing should I accept one who supports Modi? Vaghela? > Mehta? Maya Vati?> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vedavati Jogi" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:42 AM> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat election> > > >> > my dear zainab,> >> > nobody has detained you here. if you don't find india a good place to live > > in you can anytime migrate to pakistan.> >> > muslims know how to complain, muslims know their rights well but they > > never understand their responsibilities.they never understand their own > > mistakes.> >> > (1)who had started 1992-93 riots? who first burnt karsevaks at godhra > > station?> > even after partitioning this country on religious basis muslims were > > allowed to stay in india, given equal rights rather more rights- was is > > not a magnonimity shown by hindus?> >> > id you reciprocate?> > did you allow your hindu brothers to build ram temple at the place where > > babri structure once stood?> >> > if you too are the sons of this soil, why do you have to look upon babar > > and not ram as your ancestor? babar was an invader. and i don't think any > > country on this earth has ever taken pride for invader's deeds.> > (2)you know it very well that madarasa educated child cannot compete with > > other children who are trained in secular schools. moreover nobody has > > stopped muslims from sending their wards to govt. run schools.still you > > send your chidren to madarasa and then complain that they don't get jobs > > anywhere because they are muslims,.... hence 'sacchar'.... hence demand > > for reservations..!> >> > (3)if muslim women are the poorest of the poor then that is because of > > your own personal laws. why don't you accept uniform civil code?> >> > (4)there are many towering personalities in various fields in india who > > are muslims and are very much loved by hindus. they never faced any > > descrimination just because they are muslims, then why this 'false > > propaganda' which separates you from main stream? think over it if > > possible.> >> > (5)you have rightly pointed out that no action has been taken against > > those hindus who participated in 92-93 riots, and i am sure in future also > > nobody even sonia becomes pm, will dare to take action against hindu > > culprits because these politician do everything to garner votes. why > > muslim appeasement? not for the betterment of muslims but for the sake of > > votes. now hindu votebank has been created in gujrat so nobody will dare > > to take action against 2002 culprits. this is politics!> >> > try to understand this. don't trust these politicians & seculars, instead > > trust your hindu brothers who are truely secualr if not provoked, join > > hands with them, join the mainstream for nation building.> >> > if you want muslim sentiments to be taken care of then try to care for > > hindu sentiments too.> >> > vedavati> >> >> >> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:45:46 +0530From: bawazainab79@gmail.comTo: > > vrjogi@hotmail.comSubject: Re: FW: [Reader-list] gujrat electionCC: > > chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com; reader-list@sarai.netMy dear Vedavati,> > When you say "modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway." I don't think there are any sentiments left after > > brutal rape, violence and torture. When the soul is killed and when you > > have to live in duress under a 'secular rule' where each day you are > > reminded that you 'are Muslim' (irrespective of whether that is your > > primary identity or not), you think there can be any sentiment or voice > > left? What do you have to say to the fact that all 'Muslims' who > > participated in the 1992-93 riots in Bombay were punished by the judiciary > > but no action was taken against the 'Hindus' who committed violences > > because Maharashtra government under amoeba Deshmukh felt that doing so > > will result in mass violence? I am sure this is a very peaceful and > > secular state to be in,one where even when there are no sentiments, they > > are assumed to be aligned.> > In peace,> > Zainab (gujju ben)> > On Dec 24, 2007 11:32 AM, Vedavati Jogi wrote:> >> > dear zainab, 'india is a secular country and will remain a secular country > > only because of majority community (that is hindus)'. otherwise 99% > > muslims who had voted for pakistan in 1947 would not have dared to stay > > in india after partition. they chose to stay back because their daily > > bread & butter was here not because they were supporting 'secularism'. > > congress too followed british policy of divide & rule after 1947. they > > gave reservations to bc, obcs, by reserving few thousands of seats they > > fooled crores of bcs & obcs and divided hindus. there are many towering > > personalities from muslim community in india like dr. kalam, bismilla > > khan, zakir hussain, shahruhk, amir khan, irfan pathan, amjad ali and many > > more... all of them come from ordinary background and are very very > > popular among hindus. still congress & left parties talked about > > descrimination, indirectly gave the slogan of 'islam khatareme hai' , > > showed carrot of 'suchhar' to muslims to keep their muslim vote bank > > intact. they can't hang afzal guru because that might hurt muslim > > sentiments. modi does not 'reserve' seats instead he talks about '5 > > crore gujratis (including bc/obcs/muslims)' . he does not equate > > soharabuddin & common muslims, hence he does not hesitate to take stern > > action against the former because he knows that will not hurt muslim > > sentiments anyway. this secularism practised by congress & likes has > > always been at the expense of hindus. terrorists are attacking temples & > > trains still -congress is talking about 'liberalism', they create hue & > > cry when person like soharabuddin is killed. they have talked a lot about > > 'gujrat' killings what about 'kashmiri pundits'? gujjubhais have proved > > that hereafter hindus cannot be taken for granted.that is why it is their > > victory! vedavati> >> >> > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 20:04:12 -0800From: chanchal_malviya@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionTo: bawazainab79@gmail.comCC: > > vrjogi@hotmail.com> >> >> >> >> > Hi,> >> > You need to understand a simple thing - it is Hindus who are facing the > > problem of communalism on their own motherland..> > Narendra Modi is a strong Hindu supporter... And when I say Hindu, it is > > to be understand that the world Humanity is already enveloped in it..> > So, when Narendra Modi has won it is Hindus who have won.. in other words, > > it is humanity that has won..> >> > Muslims has yet to prove their nationalist approach..Muslims gather in big > > mass when there is anything related to their religion...> > But there is not a single movement by Muslims when Hindus get killed in > > Terrorist attacks...> > Muslims shout like anything for 2002 riot... But none has ever said a word > > about Nandigram, Kashmir or Achalpur (Oct 2007 riot)...> > Whenever Muslims will come on Road to declare that Terrorist are Muslims > > but not Quranic followers, whenver Muslims would do some roadshow to make > > the world realize that Terrorist and Muslim are two different set of > > people.. Whenever Muslim would oppose what is written on irf.net that all > > Muslims are terrorists and they should be proud of it.. Whenever Muslims > > will understand that crime is to be dealt with law and not religion.... > > THEN Narendra Modi's win would be all people's win...> >> > Don't you think that India is secular because it yet contains majority of > > Hindus... can you say Kashmir is secular.. we will soon know West Bengal > > becoming another Kashmir..> > Why is that wherever Muslims exists (and if there is no strict law to > > handle them)..there is killing, hatred and voilence...> >> > Muslims have to rethink on their learnings of Quran... Declaring Quran as > > words of God and then putting killing into action in the name of same God > > is not justifiable.. For hundreds of years this is what is happening > > through our Muslims brothers... It is they who have intruded in the nation > > of Hindus, Hindus have not gone into Arabia to indulge into what they used > > to do there.... Yet, Hindus call them brothers... The day Muslim will > > start calling Hindus as brothers... the day Muslims would start respecting > > the mother (cow) of their brothers.. the Muslim would join the festivals > > of their brothers... the secularism would meet its meaning....> >> > Muslims have to realize that 2002 riot would not have taken place, had > > Godhra would not have taken place...> > Muslims have to realize that Vande Matram and Jai Hind is what is expected > > from their month....> >> > I hope I am clear on why Hindus believe Narendra Modi's win is Hindus > > win...> >> > Jai Hind,> >> > ----- Original Message ----From: Zainab Bawa To: > > TaraPrakash Cc: reader-list@sarai.net; Vedavati > > Jogi < vrjogi@hotmail.com>Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 8:34:38 > > AMSubject: Re: [Reader-list] gujrat electionHi Vedavati,Thanks for the > > forceful clarification. I am still a bit unclearas to why Modi's victory > > is a victory for Hindus? as for formation of Hindu votebanks, there are > > several of them across the country and as you yourselfhave accepted that > > just as all Gujjus are not Hindus, so also all Hindus arenot Hindus.I > > really apologize for my dimwitedness and my inability to understand your > > claim that Modi's victory is a victory for Hindus. Are you suggesting > > thatModi's victory is now a step ahead in the formation of > > 'Hindustan'?Again, apologies for nagging you.Cheers,Zainab (confused gujju > > ben) On Dec 24, 2007 1:30 AM, TaraPrakash wrote:> > > Isn't it rather a defeat of Hindu forces? Ask Praveen Togadia. Ask the > > > RSS members discontented with Modi. Ask the guy giving Modi "Brahmin ka> > > shaap" for getting his son murdered. Will another Hindu terrorist Advani> > > be> happy with the results? Is Uma Bharati pseudo secular or pseudo > > communal > for> floating her own party against BJP?> The fight in Gujarat > > was a fight between Hindus and Hindus if Hindus have> won, Hindus have> > > lost too. So your victory gets canceled. Evil wins and evil loses. > May > > be you will be more careful before putting your foot in to your mouth> > > next time.>> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Vedavati Jogi" < > > vrjogi@hotmail.com>> To: ; > > > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:20 AM > Subject: [Reader-list] gujrat > > election>>> >> >> >> >> > whether it is a victory for bjp or for > > modi....its a useless question.> > its a victory for hindus. and i hope > > it will be an eye opener for psudo > > seculars!> >> > you can't always > > divide hindus & rule. thank you gujjubhais for showing> > the world that > > when hindus unite, hindu vote bank too can be formed!> > > > vedavati> >> > > >> > _________________________________________________________________> > > > Tried the new MSN Messenger? It's cool! Download now.> > > > http://messenger.msn.com/Download/Default.aspx?mkt=en-in> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with> subscribe in the > > subject header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>_________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & > > CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.> >> >> > Live the life in style with MSN Lifestyle. Check out! Try it now!> > _________________________________________________________________> > Post free property ads on Yello Classifieds now! www.yello.in> > http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=219> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >
Via: Sabir Haque
Dear all,
I being a muslim brother, pardon me, if not considered a brother. But a certain amount of similar emotions did arise reading that mail of Vedavati, although this will be looked at differently as me being a muslim brother. But I agree with Fatima, ignoring them is the best measure.
"You don't even deserve my hatred, not to mention my attention"
regards,
Sabir Haque
"S.Fatima" wrote:
Dear Oishik and others (maybe not Zainab)
I am sorry, but it seems all that the Psecularists are
left to do now is to jerk their knees to show their
frustration. Have we fallen so low after the defeat
that we can't even think rationally.
Tell me frankly, is this the only way left to make a
dialogue. Or are we not interested in a dialogue?
Frankly, I am not surprised at Modi's victory. To me,
life is not so black and white so as to see it through
only an election defeat or victory. Do you think some
miracles would happen to turn Gujarat into a
peace-utopia had the congress come to power?
Its going to take ages to turn this country into a
sensible place to live in. Let us first make ourselves
a little more sensible.
S.F.
> On 12/25/07, OISHIK SIRCAR
> wrote:
> > Dear Vedavati:
> >
> > Please shove your Hindu sentiments up your arse...
> take that from a Hindu
> > brother of yours who had done that a long long
> time back... trust me it
> > feels orgasmic... and once you get the hang of
> it... you'll keep doing it
> > over and over again... shoving up the Hindu
> bullshit I mean...
> >
> > May be that should be your new year resolution...
> >
> > Good luck...
> >
> > Oishik
> >
> > P.S.: Apologies to other reader-list users for the
> purposeful use of a
> > certain kind of language (cannot say whether it is
> indecent or not)... I
> > know we need to confront radicalism with reason...
> and not drivel... but I
> > hope to be excused this time... for the sake of
> the holiday season!
> _________________________________________
Do you get hundreds of mails everyday? Delete none. Go to http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_mail_9/*https://edit.india.yahoo.com/config/eval_register
