Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us
Via: Kshmendra Kaul
Dear Shuddha
Even to be ticked off by you is a pleasure. You who I unabashedly admire even though I often disagree with even if I might find it difficult to articulate my disagreements.
The gentleman suggested a bias in himself by the nature of his post. That is what I pointed out to him. To make it worse it is he who brought attention to his "otherness" and presumed that I was seeking to silence him, exclude him.
I do wish you were equally forthright in 'ticking off' those who have at various times attributed biases to me based on my 'handle'. They have done so without any shred of a word or syllable in my posts that would substantiate their assessment of me.
While I am in the valley of wishes, I also wish you were equally forthright in condemning the List Administrator for de-listing one lone person when at least one other has been more crude in his post (copy of which I sent to the Admin).
Oh yes there have been posting on this List of "matters" from 'other' countries, but Shuddha, join me in some honest objectivity, those are rare sightings. When it comes to social and political commenting, this List has a profusion of India-Bashing. Most times it is blatantly indulged in and is shameful in its superficiality, at other times with naked subtlety or with comments by 'tongues in hypocritical cheeks'.
Given the intellectual accomplishment levels of this list, I wish there was more of India-Introspection, more of India-Critiques. And, of course those attitudes were not just India-Centric.
If this list seeks to soften the 'borders' then there has to be "openness" not only in providing space for postings, but also openness of "Ijtehad" on all fronts from members from all countries and of all dispensations/ideologies. Bashings will only etch deeper the lines of separation.
Kshmendra
--- On Mon, 10/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:
From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us
To: kshmendra2005@yahoo.com
Cc: "Naeem Mohaiemen" , "sarai list"
Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 4:50 PM
Dear Kshmendra,
Ahem, actually, there have been postings on this list on the situation of minorities in Bangladesh. I would draw your attention to Shambu Rahmat's recent posting on the removal and desecration of Buddha images in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, (and attendent abuses) and Naeem himself, (actually in response to a post that I wrote on Mass Graves in Kashmir) has also posted on gross human rights violations in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (home to large numbers of non-Muslim indigenous peoples) in Bangladesh.
I think you will agree with me that it is about time we stopped making not very well informed judgements about people's biases on the basis of our assesments of list members identities as revealed by their handles and our speculations about their provenances.
thanks and regards,
Shuddha
On 06-Oct-08, at 4:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
Dear Naeem
I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy to the background of your choosing an extract. If you had given that background, maybe your extract would not have seemed provocative. Maybe.
You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to exclude or silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do it. This List is open space and at the very least it seeks to be South Asian.
Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register (as noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian expressing itself as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die."?
Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract """"...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""".
If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities. This list is too India-centric isn't it, as you yourself (I think) have pointed out in the past.
While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?
I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about India being a "Great Country" and either talk about it already being a Superpower or being on the thresh-hold of becoming a Superpower. I ask them if the truth is anywhere close to their contentions, why would Indians by the thousands leave India and seek employment or education opportunities in other countries.
Kshmendra
--- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
From: Naeem Mohaiemen
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us
To: "Sarai Reader List"
Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM
I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a
conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat,
a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat
The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno
professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc
old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension
by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new
city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many
of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work
because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I
suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class
Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield
examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in
certain situations economic class trumps race or religion).
Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it
interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to
counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis.
As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering
to
silence/exclude...
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
wrote:
Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article
to
serve as an introduction to your posting was the line:
"""""" even "famous Muslims" find
it difficult to find a house.""""""""
Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this.
As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words:
Dear Shuddha
Even to be ticked off by you is a pleasure. You who I unabashedly admire even though I often disagree with even if I might find it difficult to articulate my disagreements.
The gentleman suggested a bias in himself by the nature of his post. That is what I pointed out to him. To make it worse it is he who brought attention to his "otherness" and presumed that I was seeking to silence him, exclude him.
I do wish you were equally forthright in 'ticking off' those who have at various times attributed biases to me based on my 'handle'. They have done so without any shred of a word or syllable in my posts that would substantiate their assessment of me.
While I am in the valley of wishes, I also wish you were equally forthright in condemning the List Administrator for de-listing one lone person when at least one other has been more crude in his post (copy of which I sent to the Admin).
Oh yes there have been posting on this List of "matters" from 'other' countries, but Shuddha, join me in some honest objectivity, those are rare sightings. When it comes to social and political commenting, this List has a profusion of India-Bashing. Most times it is blatantly indulged in and is shameful in its superficiality, at other times with naked subtlety or with comments by 'tongues in hypocritical cheeks'.
Given the intellectual accomplishment levels of this list, I wish there was more of India-Introspection, more of India-Critiques. And, of course those attitudes were not just India-Centric.
If this list seeks to soften the 'borders' then there has to be "openness" not only in providing space for postings, but also openness of "Ijtehad" on all fronts from members from all countries and of all dispensations/ideologies. Bashings will only etch deeper the lines of separation.
Kshmendra
--- On Mon, 10/6/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:
From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us
To: kshmendra2005@yahoo.com
Cc: "Naeem Mohaiemen" , "sarai list"
Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 4:50 PM
Dear Kshmendra,
Ahem, actually, there have been postings on this list on the situation of minorities in Bangladesh. I would draw your attention to Shambu Rahmat's recent posting on the removal and desecration of Buddha images in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, (and attendent abuses) and Naeem himself, (actually in response to a post that I wrote on Mass Graves in Kashmir) has also posted on gross human rights violations in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (home to large numbers of non-Muslim indigenous peoples) in Bangladesh.
I think you will agree with me that it is about time we stopped making not very well informed judgements about people's biases on the basis of our assesments of list members identities as revealed by their handles and our speculations about their provenances.
thanks and regards,
Shuddha
On 06-Oct-08, at 4:40 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote:
Dear Naeem
I can only comment on what you actually post since I am not privy to the background of your choosing an extract. If you had given that background, maybe your extract would not have seemed provocative. Maybe.
You misrepresent my usage of "As an Indian". It was not meant to exclude or silence you. I neither have the desire nor power to do it. This List is open space and at the very least it seeks to be South Asian.
Why would you object to my sadness "as an Indian" when I register (as noteworthy) the desperation and hopelessness of an Indian expressing itself as ""Where will I go? This is the place where I was born. This is the place I will die."?
Was I the one "othering" you? You had already "othered" yourself by choosing as an introduction for your posting the extract """"...even "famous Muslims" find it difficult to find a house."""""".
If I am not mistaken, you are from Bangladesh. It would be good if there are regular postings from you highlighting significant social and political issues of Bangladesh including ones related to the minorities. This list is too India-centric isn't it, as you yourself (I think) have pointed out in the past.
While we are at your "otherness", if you are actually from Bangladesh may I ask you something. It has always intrigued me that if India is such a hellish place for Muslims, why would Muslims from Bangladesh in fairly large numbers steal in as illegal migrants. What are your thoughts on that?
I ask a similar question from my fellow Indians who talk about India being a "Great Country" and either talk about it already being a Superpower or being on the thresh-hold of becoming a Superpower. I ask them if the truth is anywhere close to their contentions, why would Indians by the thousands leave India and seek employment or education opportunities in other countries.
Kshmendra
--- On Sun, 10/5/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote:
From: Naeem Mohaiemen
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] INDIA: Others Among Us
To: "Sarai Reader List"
Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 7:59 PM
I had just finished editing a friend's proposed abstract for a
conference in Kolkata. Her research looks at the locality of Rajarhat,
a formerly fishing/agriculture, now a fast growing IT Hub/new city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajarhat
The fundamental tension is new IT Park, attracting NRIs and Techno
professionals, displacing the old working class inhabitants. Etc etc
old story. At one point in the abstract, she highlights this tension
by talking about Muslim tenants being refused apartments in this new
city. The juxtaposition of course was with the old inhabitants, many
of whom were Muslim, but I actually thought it didn't quite work
because the displaced population was about 45%-55% Muslim-Hindu. I
suggested to her that looking at what happens to upper class
Muslims/NRIs/IT Professionals if they seek an apartment, etc may yield
examples counter to her hypothesis (since I have a theory that in
certain situations economic class trumps race or religion).
Having just finished reading/editing that abstract, I found it
interesting to stumble on "the line" in the article that seemed to
counter, at least in one locality, my hypothesis.
As for your use of "As an Indian", interesting exercise in othering
to
silence/exclude...
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
wrote:
Naeem, it is interesting that what you could find quotable in the article
to
serve as an introduction to your posting was the line:
"""""" even "famous Muslims" find
it difficult to find a house.""""""""
Tells me how your mind works and with what intent you posted this.
As an Indian what I registered as noteworthy were the words:
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